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I have limitedly engaged the reasonings here, in part, because of the general tone of a few.
I purposely engaged this reasoning as an arrogant, smart ass. As a reflection of the attitude or types of reasonings I have seen here and on the other boards by a few.  Making points in the style of “funny”retorts… It seems that when it gets a bit too much of the taste of one’s own medicine the boys run away or cry foul. I do know that in the end I am responsible for my own actions, but hoped maybe this may change some perspectives of how this type of reasoning feels to others. I know and see the vibe was felt to have more tolerance.

360, you reason rather passive aggressive or rather aggressive passive (in MN we call it “minnesota nice”).  You said I have insinuated your points. I disagreed with your points. (where we are, psychic energy focused”, feng shui –gestures of good faith, scraps from the table,…)….and the main point about the glue holding it together.
Just because you now say that my points (or what you call insinuations) are a waste of energy doesn’t make it so. It is a matter of perspective indeed. Knowing what power they actually have. You may have me clocked as insinuating your point after you didn’t answer the american culture question. I answered the question with my opinion of the answer.
”As Starshyne pointed out - "symbol-rich freemasonry that designed this nation" - which harkens to the soul of this nation, symbolisms, ritual that are the stuff of the cohesive glue of the culture, just as they have been of all empires past.”
I think you may have now changed your mind about the glue?… but to me this has been your main point and that Obama/change/hope are just another chapter in their plan. I disagreed with your perspective. Thus I disagree with whatever points you make in support of that premise.

It is not just about being “removed from our ability to make a difference”. It is also about being removed from our responsibility. As you know via the enlightenment we have been and are privileged. We have a responsibility to address the arrogance, individualism, greed in the manifestations of sexism, racism, classism, etc….
Otherwise, in the inverse it is like saying… who can blame us for being racist and sexist… the onus is really on the system or the ones that put the system in place. In my opinion the “john” is just as much responsible as the pimp. See, its this mentality … it is a thought process that remains untouched… it is this thought process which puts the blame outside of oneself to an elusive order (what can we say with certainty is the plan or part of the plan)… in which one does not recognize the privilege and nature of “having a dinner party” discussing the conjecture of what the master plan of “them” is.  Treks through history can be rewarding. Our white European history can inform us the privilege and status we now have in this paradigm. After so many years, we have yet to change that. Collective responsibility.

“i must think of change on the terms of "the way it is and not how i want it to be" (to paraphrase immortal technique).”
I have learned much from people like Immortal technique. Although, he has a different ancestral history and experience than we do as whites.
I know others have as well… but I have BEEN pissed off for some time now about the way it is and not how I want it to be (that’s why I said the work has not changed)… the ideology of supremacy signing me up on the dotted line of privilege and benefits in this society has pissed me off for some time. Its been something I don’t want which is easy enough to say in word…but much work in the realm of “change” in ingrained consciousness in the pealing back of layers of privilege and arrogance and attempts in finding ways of legitimate action to do away with the paradigm. I no longer see “us” and “them”. I know Rootsie has written a few articles on here about that. We are them because privilege has said so. This could bring up a whole other conversation as to if we are in the rightful position to make judgments about the mind frame of a light skin black leader or blacks as a supporting populous of this leader. I feel that from my white perspective, it is best for me to put my work in engaging the issues of racism, sexism, classism that have very real every day implications. These things underlay(hidden/the secret society) the political issues .

I should say that the website I'm referring to is one of the white-guy-conspiracy theory sites, so to call it 'left' isn't descriptive or accurate.

"is it really so "under control" that we can't make a difference and anyone
who tries is just a dupe? isn't this in itself an admission of defeat and
an excuse not to get involved?"

That's why I said somewhere back there that the DEEPEST deep-cover agents may be on the extreme left. In fact I was told of one with a popular (among us) website.

The Sandinistas et. al. used the language of the Declaration in their own documents--my point was that those enlightenment ideas about the Rights of Man (sic) reach back into ancient, pre-Empire times. Tom Paine and John Locke didn't invent them. This is why they resonate--and why, I guess, they are so ripe for manipulation. I would like to think that humans are wired for freedom. For the vast majority of RECORDED human history, the poor have been under the whip. The big difference now is that the planet is understood as a whole planet, comprehensible as one because of instantaneous global communication, and it is increasingly understood that whatever our fate, it is a common one. I think that the revolutionary implications of this are just beginning to be felt.

what this reasoning has made me think about:

when we believe that there is some master-plan and we focus on it,
perhaps we disempower ourselves from the change that we can really
accomplish. if we are removed from our own conception of our ability to
make a difference, it gives power to ones who would rather we were just a
captive audience.

is it really so "under control" that we can't make a difference and anyone
who tries is just a dupe? isn't this in itself an admission of defeat and
an excuse not to get involved?

___

With all its good ideas, the enlightenment is still laden with arrogance and based on a certain group of people's(the European) experience -
it has brought some good things to some, but a lot more suffering to others. I guess I find it offensive that the world - in the throws of the outcome of the enlightenment which has united the world economically, technologically, etc - has its natural resources, finance,
etc. concentrated in the hands of a few people who throw their weight around and in the process wiping away the vestiges of so many
cultures/peoples that are now delegitimized in the scope of their contributions to human history. I find it very interesting that
"socialism" and "capitalism" - at least in their concretized  forms around which societies are organized have their origin in the enlightenment. This
is where we see the root of the seemingly divergent branches - Simon Bolivar and George Washington, the embryonic socialist French philosophers
and Adam Smith, etc. You mention Chavez and Morales - they are not Europeans and although their policies CAN be viewed in the light of enlightenment socialism - they are FIRSTLY coming from the perspective of people who were victims of the double prong of the European incursion -  the church and then the enlightenment. How many of the virtues espoused in the enlightenment philosophy existed pre-European invasion in the indigenous populations, but we still want to see the Native American struggle in the framework of the great work of the enlightenment? This is an example of why I speak of the framework, the symbolisms, etc - these are important - even as you and I speak they are framing the discourse.

"basic civil rights and separation of church and state and a coherent court system and free universal education improve people's lives" - this
may be new to "us"  but this is the frame in which it is set, it is loaded with assumptions and a perspective about the world. with everything that has been destroyed, with history erased/revised/rewritten, with the conquerers telling the stories -  can we say this for certain? how much has been wiped clean? i think that an illusion we get caught up in is the paradigm that these
ideas are new/necessary when in reality the discourse is set in the European experience(I know you know this - I am just making a general statement.)
i.e. church/state separation - what does this actually mean? what is the difference between the church and the state really - a separation of church and state reflects perhaps an improvement in European societies - but is it necessary, address a need in other societies as a universal? and what is religion? - and how did the secular state become devoid of it when it is STILL based in assumptions about the world, when it is based around ritual, about belief in what it is, what is the difference?? basic civil rights - again, this is a european discourse - who said these did not exist in other societies? court system, free education - again, who is setting the discourse here? all these things reflect a discourse set up in european societies, they reflect the evolution of european societies, the needs of european societies - are these things universal? and since we start out with the exceptionalism of Europe, its improvements MUST of course be the best that humankind has achieved.

I think symbolism is important in the process of trying to tie together a culture/society - to give it a meaning, a focus and a trajectory. I don't know if there is necessarily some secret office of symbolism - it does sound kind of silly, but I don't know why it is silly to consider the importance of symbolism in light of how other societies employed it, such as the Egyptians/Aztecs/Mayans - planning, basing calenders/events on a timeframe - on date in the future, etc..  A Priesthood class in charge of the ordering of society - around events, natural/celestial and otherwise. These kept the society ordered/moving. Everything about the founding of the US is based around repetition of symbolisms and around natural/celestial events. Its seal employs a cipher and hidden message. Major events have occurred on a schedule, whether it is the atomic bomb or 9/11. I can see how these events are laden with INTENT/RITUAL and used to steer society in a certain direction - I see these in the light of the way older cultures employed statecraft. I would say that "they" don't have absolute control over the way things are interpreted though or what is spawned from their "creations" - as Mumia Abu Jamal pointed out in a recent interview - symbols often-time take on a life of their own. So I agree with you - "THEY" really don't have THE power and I like your positive spin that we should take advantage of this open area of dialogue that has been brought in the process of the election of a new president. however  - i will not allow this to be framed in the context of the symbol that Obama represents in the context of the U.S. legacy. WHAT IS important is that people had their hearts activated by 8 years of shit, so yeah, let's take advantage of THAT.

the "tracking of symbolism" as you call it is a FRUIT in itself of my very rewarding study of history. of course this study of history is nothing if it is not applied to actions and i totally agree that the usual spin on "conspiracy theory" tends to seize gears rather than have us move forward since it lends to the conception of an "us" and a "them" - usually with "them" having all the power. i think however my "spin" is different - i understand that what "they" are doing is really nothing new to the world of civilizations - it has to to with order. it is not something to be afraid of, it is something that just is - and if it is scary and we don't like the trajectory - it is  because it indeed is a reflection of what WE collectively have allowed it to become.

So yes -
** "Manipulators of symbols, like Starshyne said, are bound to have it backfire. The rise of the modern nation-state
may have been accident or imperial plot or inevitability, but here we are, so what do we do about it?" **

i mean maybe i'm just pissed off and the punk rocker in me doesn't want to submit to the fact that i must think of change on the terms of "the way it is and not how i want it to be" (to paraphrase immortal technique).

Well, there is a lot to what you both shared here.

360, are the 'ideals of the founding fathers' really only lip service? REALLY? They reflect most ancient ideas which I'm not sure have ever manifested on this earth. Whatever the intent, by tapping into that particular symbology have 'they' set something in motion which is beyond 'their' control? Absolutely, and the Sandinistas and Morales and Chavez et.al. would probably agree.
I don't think it's possible to argue about whether basic civil rights and separation of church and state and a coherent court system and free universal education improve people's lives. We would surely not be sitting here doing this if they didn't.

Starshyne is right that it's the 'isms' we need to be chipping away at, ramping up the conversation while people are in the mood to talk. I ask what kind of revolution. what sort of sudden turning over would truly usher in a new time for us on this planet without killing a few billion along the way? There are times for revolution. It seems to me that Evo Morales, in contrast to Chavez, has his eyes on the prize, step by step. Argentina, as the first recipient of 'shock therapy' is way ahead in thinking about how to reorganize ecoonomically for a sane society. There are heroes all over wresting water rights from Coca Cola and such, supporting people who are taking charge of their lives and their comunities. What this most privileged people here have to do is get in line and lend a hand. I think it's interesting what Starshyne said about a possible side-benefit of 'volunteerism': empathy.

I don't feel any different than I ever did about United States arrogance and exceptionalism--we have to address these and change the whole tenor of the conversation that happens here--but who is to do it? Politicians? Yeah right. What Obama seems to me to be doing is clearing some space for US to get down to work--I sincerely believe he knows what I know about the world and is looking for a way to get some essential changes roling, which is impossible without the engagement of people like us who have spent a long time in the wilderness getting a sense of what's wrong. I don't think it was time wasted out there.

It is not the forces of empire putting change on the table. It is no one dictating 'time for change.' Like Starshyne says, it's resonant. It calls us.

Symbols are incredibly powerful. Humans think, after all, in images that stand for deeper realer things. Manipulators of symbols, like Starshyne said, are bound to have it backfire. The rise of the modern nation-state may have been accident or imperial plot or inevitability, but here we are, so what do we do about it?

I think the only way to get rid of priesthoods and hierarchies of this or that is to get off the Platonic idea that there is some underlying order of perfection we have to get in sync with--maybe we just have to breathe and be. IN the meantime while we're waiting for the fruits of the essential inner changes that need to take place, we best be doing our little part, with not a lot of hope frankly, but the joy of being on the right side of history. I do believe in that.

I am  not asking this 360 to criticize, but to reason: what are the fruits of tracking the symbolism these devils are slinging around? Are there secret offices of symbol manipulation? Are there forces at work beyond most humans' ability to see them? Does synchronicity exist? Do archetypes or something like them exist? Does focusing the mind on symbolic systems manifest them? So much to think about

i could correct you on the many insinuations about where you think i am coming from, and the mis-statments of my intent and points i was trying to make -  but that would not be a productive use of energy in regards to this reasoning.

since this is about action - i will state that you have made many good points. what i have taken away from it is this - and your main point(correct me if i am wrong):

the cohesive glue is the how we interact with one another(ego, greed, self-centeredness, arrogance, etc…) - this is the tangible substance of the "American culture" and the place which we can actively engage in changes in our everyday lives/actions. i see how you are saying that is a much more productive place to expend energy "on the ground" than what you see as a waste of energy trying to figuring out "the plan." since "the plan" is an intangible and while it may exist it is not important for us to spend too much time on since the REAL work is in fostering better/tangible changes in our everyday lives - in whatever way we can.


I like this and will definitely be taking it into consideration:
"I think we would better off engaging things like change and hope. Re-circuiting the negative and magnifying the positive… the concepts of hope and change are not illusions. We indeed are energy channelers. It is biological and environmental. "

Thanks for sharing.

Well lets just go to DC and get Tim McVey-ish on them?! Since the problem is within the symbols & rituals, lets go do it up alqaeda styleE!
About feng shui…actually I was going to bring up some other stuff about feng shui, but that would probably send you off on a zeitgusto seizure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_shui

Interesting isn’t it… Zeitgeist that is… I was invited to a couple of dinner parties that the main theme of the party was to view this movie. There are many people aware and lets (boo!) HOPE it doesn’t stop there…where we intellectually stand in awe of an imaginary bird in flight while a real-time mac truck smacks us. I think it is ego… like look they are not that much of a “secret society” or they are a “secret society” and I have them clocked every step of the way… who really cares… is it really relevant that we see the symbols and rituals they intend…. Is it really relevant that we recognize their ceremonies?  Isn’t it illusions? They don’t actually “have the power” so the pomp and circumstance of it all is an illusion. I think that doing ones work in being ones best and putting forward ones best to others is a far large task that takes much energy… instead of putting energy into what is an illusion…. Are we conduits? …kind of like “short circuiting the positive and charging the negative”, eh?

“it IS being used as a part of who WE are, as a definition of WHERE we are at.”
Is it true though? Where are we? People want a change; people massively had an exchange with government like it hasn’t been in a great while. It is not just going to go down like a big gulp slurpy from 711. People are engaged. If even through an illusion, I feel that people are engaging the idea of change, hope, making things better… I feel that people that you speak of, who buy the illusion, are few…there is much noise out about holding obama accountable…(obamameter…http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/)/daily news debates. I do feel though there are many, many who are not engaged through the illusion, and I feel that we have to engage it through dialogue and action about what is change, hope and making things better…. ”WHERE we are at”… in ourselves, in our house, neighborhood, community, etc.. the work has indeed not changed.
It is not like “we have arrived... Hallelujah”. Race is being discussed in many different ways and places… the “dream yet unfulfilled” is brought front and center. Neither will people so easily suck on the lollipop of more war.

You didn’t answer my question “What American culture are you speaking of please? What is THE American culture?” Instead, you reply talking about “common heritage”, what common heritage? So now we are talking about heritage rather than culture. You bring up heritage so you can talk about symbolism more. “Our common heritage” is “a melting pot of heritages”. This is avoiding the question I asked. So I will answer my own question then. American culture is ego/self-centered/arrogance/greed of power (if you can tell me what one word for that would be…great!)… what is the glue that holds that together is not statues, calculated dates, etc… the glue is the isms of racism, sexism, classism, etc…People don’t stay plugged in because they just love the beat of the star-spangled banner so much… I said they have failed miserably in having the symbols and rituals be “the cohesive glue"…the rituals and symbols are not what holds it together… where do pppl plan their vacation get-away? Hedonistically on Lincoln's lap? … so I am saying, figuring out the ins and outs of their ceremonies, statues and puppeteer-ing is an illusion that diverts energy from addressing the real…maybe because what we do share still is that “common heritage” or “culture”  you speak of which is ego, greed, self-centeredness, arrogance, etc…
“THAT is our collective heritage, our psychic energy focused”
 Psychic energy focused?… no, not to me. Not in the way you are defining collective heritage… that’s called, our psychic energy disabled. Psychic energy focused on an illusion… we are neutralized/benched buddy or as Rootsie said…standing on the sidelines bitching…Psychic energy focused on an illusion…pouring water on rusty sparkplugs. "Our collective heritage" has been about promoting our psychic energy focused on arrogance, greed and self-interest and the isms are the waves/wires.
Scraps off the table? That’s the point again… they don’t have the power to even throw ppl a milk bone.
Like Rootsie has said, there have been every-day-people, that have been doing there every-day work for a long time… that is how things have moved and shifted… if even slightly. I don’t give “power” to empire. So Hitler was a puppet? and the holocaust a plot? So that FDR could have the acclaim of uniting us in a common cause? Change is on the table because that is what “we the people” have been pushing for… it is not biz as usual… I can give you a number of examples where people have been diligently working in “speaking truth to “power”… is it so far-fetched to think the ppl have had successes and people are upset by the mismanagement, so the pressure is on?
Again, I feel that giving power to this order by being immersed into its structure and function of symbols
“…but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice”
So how does that justice come? Taking apart the structure. Feng shui-ing it… first you have to know what structure you are messing with. The illusional structure… or the one based in reality…. I am guessing a good angle (pun intended) may be found by back tracking “injustice”. What is the source of injustice? I think chipping at the mortar called racism, sexism, classism, etc… may be a good start in getting at the blocks of ego, greed, arrogance, etc.
“my comment about feng shui  was about re-arranging a house which is already built - which is what the house-cleaner obama is doing in the white house, not re-arranging feng shui where power relationships are questioned at their root. i thought this was cute:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/16/obama-chic-decorate-white-house-tough-times/”
I may be a girl…but…”Cute”, shoot…not!
I thought that was indeed what you were saying. That putting Obama in the white house was a power move? To cool the masses through “a necessary good faith gesture”.  I am saying that people are not so stupid as you might like to think nor as easily duped. This is what Rootsie has been saying. So we should be concerned about figuring out and “AIR-ing” (they have no power but the waves we provide) their energy of illusional pageantry. It is an illusion. By getting ppl to suck into an illusion, negative energy is circuited. I think we would better off engaging things like change and hope. Re-circuiting the negative and magnifying the positive… the concepts of hope and change are not illusions. We indeed are energy channelers. It is biological and environmental. What is worthwhile engaging?

i apologize if this is rather stream of conscious - i tried to organize it, but i had many thoughts and tried to relate it to things that were posted that may not flow - good feng shui? you decide!

harken - yes, i guess i'm all caught up in presidential power speeches, powerful oration, yadayadayada - oh the zeitgeist of it all! symbolism - i would say that pointing out something is not akin to having fear of it, it can just be a recognition of a reality. and no, they have not failed
miserably, from  9/11 to the crowning of Obama as the beacon of the achievement -  unified in a common cause whether by fear or ecstacy and
the greatness of WE the PEOPLE(c). it IS being used as a part of who WE are, as a definition of WHERE we are at. THAT is our collective heritage,
our psychic energy focussed - it happens anytime a grand event happens, framed in the discourse of OUR common heritage. it is not just about how IN CONTROL they are either - it is an attempt to define our COMMON heritage in a certain frame - to maintain order within the grand scope of a large society, it is necessary to do this - it is the matrix within which culture is framed. we will find examples of this in any large scale society/empire - societies cohesion based around time, order, calendar, things in a due time and season. 44 years since voting rights -  44th president  and first non-white president, crowned the day after King day, the last day of bush's administration 9/11 reversed. am i reading too much into it or recognizing a pattern? people got organized in the civil rights movement - this created a dialogue and things changed, that is a case and point of my point of the back and forth exchange with government.  However -  this movement was infiltrated and compromised AND then FRAMED to give the credit to OUR COMMON HERITAGE, King,  the poster boy, dialoging with Johnson in the White House got too deep into the roots and inconsistencies and  was destroyed and even his legacy became the property of our misguided conversation about civil rights, notice the FOCUS on King's relatively non-threatening thoughts vs. the ones in later life. now they frame King, IN THEIR EYES and line it up with THE GREAT ACHIEVEMENT OF OUR WAY OF LIFE and symbolically link it up with our first non-white president. 

however it does not mean that this trajectory/intention is a given or even function the way that it is intended. 9/11 was meant to serve as a unification of our common consciousness through fear/trauma/rebirth - catalyst to war, yet it also sparked many to question the official version and how this catalyzing event was being used to further something along. the crowning of obama can serve a similar function - there are "NEW" issues on the table(but for a reason which ALSO serves the empire) BUT it does not have to be framed this way. It could mean the world is changing and with it the empire is being force to change its image, and supposedly its course, history is causing it to change. the superman(Nietzche) may create his own reality and his own rules, but the superman also realizes the necessity to answer to greater forces. the reference book of rhetoric that is always called on to defend OUR way of life, the lip-service ideals of the founding fathers, of the enlightenment, liberty, equality, fraternity - these are being called upon now - the call now is to put it into action to really be a beacon unto the
nations(but damn, they aren't getting out of everyone's hair, that's what really gets my GAOTU.) I can only think we've(there's that WE again -
can't seem to shake the hegemonic psychic vampires!) gone through this before with a man named FDR, public works, working together as a
community, we are all in it together and then bam - WWII, united in common cause.

and just why is change on the table. do we not consider why it is all of a sudden there? does it matter? and why must we wait on the time table of an empire who feels the time is right for it to be on the table? is it just taking advantage of a scrap from the table?

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." - MLK

my comment about feng shui  was about re-arranging a house which is already built - which is what the house-cleaner obama is doing in the white house, not re-arranging feng shui where power relationships are questioned at their root. i thought this was cute:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/16/obama-chic-decorate-white-house-tough-times/

you said that what needs to be done and how it is done has not changed even though we have a new administration, i agree. and NO it does not HAVE to go this way - things are not SET IN STONE(pun intended) to the point of being immovable. i think this is the defeatist attitude that is encouraged and the use of paranoia and conspiracy and "figuring it all out" that can lead to this - but Rootsie was very right, people all over the world struggle day in and day out without losing focus and it is only right that we at least do as much.

when we focus on something it gives it power, so why give power by focussing on it - by trying to decode the symbolic instead of focussing on the work at hand. that is a good point, but i think they can go hand in hand.

Feng Shui, LOL! Great that you brought that up!!! Might help connect the dots.
I feel that feng shui is more than "just necessary good faith gestures". It is INDEED about energy movement and improving life by facilitating the movement of energy... may be expanded on to discuss the "time for change"... as this is all about energy.
LOL ...but seriously some metaphysical points to consider... the top ten of a "space life"...#5 is especially good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5atOfOlZ6XU