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three_sixty
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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2009, 08:46:22 PM »

what this reasoning has made me think about:

when we believe that there is some master-plan and we focus on it,
perhaps we disempower ourselves from the change that we can really
accomplish. if we are removed from our own conception of our ability to
make a difference, it gives power to ones who would rather we were just a
captive audience.

is it really so "under control" that we can't make a difference and anyone
who tries is just a dupe? isn't this in itself an admission of defeat and
an excuse not to get involved?

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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2009, 02:37:51 PM »

"is it really so "under control" that we can't make a difference and anyone
who tries is just a dupe? isn't this in itself an admission of defeat and
an excuse not to get involved?"

That's why I said somewhere back there that the DEEPEST deep-cover agents may be on the extreme left. In fact I was told of one with a popular (among us) website.

The Sandinistas et. al. used the language of the Declaration in their own documents--my point was that those enlightenment ideas about the Rights of Man (sic) reach back into ancient, pre-Empire times. Tom Paine and John Locke didn't invent them. This is why they resonate--and why, I guess, they are so ripe for manipulation. I would like to think that humans are wired for freedom. For the vast majority of RECORDED human history, the poor have been under the whip. The big difference now is that the planet is understood as a whole planet, comprehensible as one because of instantaneous global communication, and it is increasingly understood that whatever our fate, it is a common one. I think that the revolutionary implications of this are just beginning to be felt.

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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2009, 02:49:05 PM »

I should say that the website I'm referring to is one of the white-guy-conspiracy theory sites, so to call it 'left' isn't descriptive or accurate.
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starshyne
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2009, 04:42:36 PM »

I have limitedly engaged the reasonings here, in part, because of the general tone of a few.
I purposely engaged this reasoning as an arrogant, smart ass. As a reflection of the attitude or types of reasonings I have seen here and on the other boards by a few.  Making points in the style of “funny”retorts… It seems that when it gets a bit too much of the taste of one’s own medicine the boys run away or cry foul. I do know that in the end I am responsible for my own actions, but hoped maybe this may change some perspectives of how this type of reasoning feels to others. I know and see the vibe was felt to have more tolerance.

360, you reason rather passive aggressive or rather aggressive passive (in MN we call it “minnesota nice”).  You said I have insinuated your points. I disagreed with your points. (where we are, psychic energy focused”, feng shui –gestures of good faith, scraps from the table,…)….and the main point about the glue holding it together.
Just because you now say that my points (or what you call insinuations) are a waste of energy doesn’t make it so. It is a matter of perspective indeed. Knowing what power they actually have. You may have me clocked as insinuating your point after you didn’t answer the american culture question. I answered the question with my opinion of the answer.
”As Starshyne pointed out - "symbol-rich freemasonry that designed this nation" - which harkens to the soul of this nation, symbolisms, ritual that are the stuff of the cohesive glue of the culture, just as they have been of all empires past.”
I think you may have now changed your mind about the glue?… but to me this has been your main point and that Obama/change/hope are just another chapter in their plan. I disagreed with your perspective. Thus I disagree with whatever points you make in support of that premise.

It is not just about being “removed from our ability to make a difference”. It is also about being removed from our responsibility. As you know via the enlightenment we have been and are privileged. We have a responsibility to address the arrogance, individualism, greed in the manifestations of sexism, racism, classism, etc….
Otherwise, in the inverse it is like saying… who can blame us for being racist and sexist… the onus is really on the system or the ones that put the system in place. In my opinion the “john” is just as much responsible as the pimp. See, its this mentality … it is a thought process that remains untouched… it is this thought process which puts the blame outside of oneself to an elusive order (what can we say with certainty is the plan or part of the plan)… in which one does not recognize the privilege and nature of “having a dinner party” discussing the conjecture of what the master plan of “them” is.  Treks through history can be rewarding. Our white European history can inform us the privilege and status we now have in this paradigm. After so many years, we have yet to change that. Collective responsibility.

“i must think of change on the terms of "the way it is and not how i want it to be" (to paraphrase immortal technique).”
I have learned much from people like Immortal technique. Although, he has a different ancestral history and experience than we do as whites.
I know others have as well… but I have BEEN pissed off for some time now about the way it is and not how I want it to be (that’s why I said the work has not changed)… the ideology of supremacy signing me up on the dotted line of privilege and benefits in this society has pissed me off for some time. Its been something I don’t want which is easy enough to say in word…but much work in the realm of “change” in ingrained consciousness in the pealing back of layers of privilege and arrogance and attempts in finding ways of legitimate action to do away with the paradigm. I no longer see “us” and “them”. I know Rootsie has written a few articles on here about that. We are them because privilege has said so. This could bring up a whole other conversation as to if we are in the rightful position to make judgments about the mind frame of a light skin black leader or blacks as a supporting populous of this leader. I feel that from my white perspective, it is best for me to put my work in engaging the issues of racism, sexism, classism that have very real every day implications. These things underlay(hidden/the secret society) the political issues .

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three_sixty
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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2009, 06:00:15 PM »

Starshyne:

It is your assumption about how I view people as "stupid" is what I was referring by your insinuation. You do NOT know how I view people.  As soon as you make that assumption of course it is gonna turn me off, and your joking style - which I thought was just you being playful initially reveals itself to be mocking.  I also don't stick to definitions and usages of words as  you might - culture/society/common heritage, etc - I use interchangably whereas you see important differences. THAT'S why I didn't understand your question re: CULTURE and I didn't get it until you "answered it yourself" - it was not an intentional avoidance to speak more about symbolism, it was a misunderstanding of what exactly you were asking.

I didn't want to engage what I viewed as your insinuations about how I think and what my points were, because this would not have been productive to the reasoning at hand. I was speaking of my own internal process, of what might have been a typical move on my part, to focus and put energy into some long-winded reasoning trying to hash out just what I meant. I instead decided to focus on and call out your points that I thought were very good and got me moving.

Thank you for further expanding your points in your post. More to think about.
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« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2009, 04:54:54 PM »

Ok just to add fuel to the fire--I meant to comment on your suggestion 360 that starshyne was 'insinuating' anything. I just reread what she wrote and I don't see where she suggested that you think people are stupid.

But I have to say that my recent shift is partly due to seeing my own and others' assumption that they know all this stuff that others don't somehow places them above the fray--like using information to bludgeon people into a sense of helplessness--this won't work, that won't work because 'they' are working at this whole other level that only the super-perceptive among us can discern...

The suggestion that such thinking gives is that anyone doing any work to change things is just being naive, if not stupid...

it just goes round and round, while in the meantime...

While in the meantime Obama is on the cusp of a disastrous decision to ramp up in Afghanistan. If it's time for a change, it's time to stop using the military to service corporate interests...that is the sea change that's needed.
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three_sixty
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« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2009, 08:05:34 PM »

"That putting Obama in the white house was a power move? To cool the masses through “a necessary good faith gesture”.  I am saying that people are not so stupid as you might like to think nor as easily duped."

* For the record, I DON'T think people are stupid for voting for Obama - I understand the many complexities and reasons why people would do so. I know many people who I have a lot of respect for voted for Obama and had very good reasons.

Look at this:

"Well lets just go to DC and get Tim McVey-ish on them?! Since the problem is within the symbols & rituals, lets go do it up alqaeda styleE!"

* I mean is this not an insinuation? I felt this was a dramatic mis-statement of where I am coming from, like a jab.

"But I have to say that my recent shift is partly due to seeing my own and others' assumption that they know all this stuff that others don't somehow places them above the fray--like using information to bludgeon people into a sense of helplessness--this won't work, that won't work because 'they' are working at this whole other level that only the super-perceptive among us can discern...

The suggestion that such thinking gives is that anyone doing any work to change things is just being naive, if not stupid..."

* I think when I started learning all this stuff I initially got fearful. I admit that - it is some heavy stuff. At the same time though - I didn't take it to start seeing people as "stupid" and people working for change as "dupes." To be honest I have thought of myself as someone who has tried to see the good in people and that has not stopped over the years - it has only intensified. I have tried to see things in different lights and that is why I am thankful and open to the views expressed in this reasoning. It honestly is very refreshing to hear and I take it to heart.

I think there are other ways to look at the ideas that I have presented.  I understand how this "mode of thought" can lead to a psychic environment of know-it-all-ism combined with a feeling of help-lessness. However - can't it also lead to getting involved on a local level, questioning our faith in the system and trying to make meaningful changes within our own lives? I think it is more about balance and recognition that we do not "know it all" - it is humility and the possibilities that blossom from this perspective. Deep down I appreciate the call to do house-cleaning in my own mind/house in regards to what delving into all this "stuff" really means and if it actually results in me seeing people as "stupid," etc. It makes me get defensive though because I KNOW that I am not coming from that place and I resent the fact that in some ways what I present is taken like that.


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three_sixty
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« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2009, 08:31:53 PM »

"is it really so "under control" that we can't make a difference and anyone
who tries is just a dupe? isn't this in itself an admission of defeat and
an excuse not to get involved?"

That's why I said somewhere back there that the DEEPEST deep-cover agents may be on the extreme left. In fact I was told of one with a popular (among us) website.

The Sandinistas et. al. used the language of the Declaration in their own documents--my point was that those enlightenment ideas about the Rights of Man (sic) reach back into ancient, pre-Empire times. Tom Paine and John Locke didn't invent them. This is why they resonate--and why, I guess, they are so ripe for manipulation. I would like to think that humans are wired for freedom. For the vast majority of RECORDED human history, the poor have been under the whip. The big difference now is that the planet is understood as a whole planet, comprehensible as one because of instantaneous global communication, and it is increasingly understood that whatever our fate, it is a common one. I think that the revolutionary implications of this are just beginning to be felt.

"That is why the resonate-and why, I guess, they are so ripe for manipulation." I think that is a good point - I think this is the same with religions, etc.

Indeed while there has been a setup of this global communications by the powers that be, there is no telling what that has led to or what that will lead to - I think that is a good example of your point about "them" not having all the control. There is no telling what we collectively can and will do with access to information and how that will effect the "established order." I think the music industry is an example - with the proliferation of ability for artists to market their own music to an audience without the help of the major record labels - the recording industry has been forced to change. You no longer need to be signed to one of the traditional labels to be popular anymore. Record companies have lost revenue because they don't "own" the "means of production" so-to-speak anymore - global communication has made them more irrelevant. I think this is why they try to scoop up the means of communication once they gain momentum as is the case with MySpace and steer it in a particular direction using the cultural glue of greed/ego-tism and selfishness(as Starshyne mentioned). Whereas it could be a tool of revolutionary implication if it were utilized correctly.
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